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In these volatile times, how do we navigate the intersection between values and commerce? Patagonia CEO Ryan Gellert and Chobani CEO Hamdi Ulukaya join New York Times reporter David Gelles onstage at the Masters of Scale Summit to reveal their different strategies for dealing with an activist White House, the pressure for what moderator Gelles calls “anticipatory compliance,” and how they grow their businesses while also prioritizing causes like environmental conservation and immigration. This is an abridged transcript of an interview from Rapid Response recorded live at the 2025 Masters of Scale Summit in San Francisco. From the team behind the Masters of Scale podcast, Rapid Response features candid conversations with todays top business leaders navigating real-time challenges. Subscribe to Rapid Response wherever you get your podcasts to ensure you never miss an episode. Gelles: Ryan, Patagonia is a very different sort of company. This company has been meddling in politics, sometimes quite loudly, for more than 50 years now. Gellert: Meddling is a strong word. Meddling . . . oh, that’s a gentle word. [Patagonia founder] Yvon Chouinard has been donating to grassroots environmental activist campaigns for more than 50 years. In 2017, Patagonia sued President Trump and his cabinet during the first . . . Gellert: Yeah, that’s meddling. That’s meddling. And you still, even at a moment when most CEOs are afraid to say anything about this administration, you’re still out there raising the alarm almost every single week, it seems. When your business is selling clothes, why do you spend so much time talking about politics and policy? Gellert: Well, first of all, it’s super interesting being on the stage with you, Hamdi, and with you, David. I think you made reference to it. You wrote a book that’s just come out in the last month about our founder and our 52-year history. You and I have gotten to know each other quite well over recent years, and I think there’s a lot that we have spiritually in common as companies. And then I think, to the nature of your question, to each of us, there’s a lot that’s actually quite different in how we navigate that. I think for us to now answer your question, we are focused on protecting the natural world. Period. That’s why we exist. It’s not about making money. It’s not about being the biggest player in outdoor apparel and equipment. It’s about protecting the natural world. And so that’s what we do, and we exist in a world right now, here in America, where the threats are absolutely unprecedented. And I think that what you might describe as speaking out, I just think is telling the [expletive] truth about what’s going on in the world right now. Okay, so the climate’s at risk, pollution and polluters, the regulations are coming off, and conservation, particularly public lands here in America. I mean, it is one goddamn threat after another, every single day. And so what are we speaking up on? Those things that matter. Same things weve spoken up on for 52 years. As the CEO of a company and as an individual, do you ever worry about the fact that this is a moment and an administration that has shown a willingness to be retributive? Gellert: Yeah, of course. And how do you navigate that? Is there any, I mean, the word is anticipatory compliance? Are you holding back at all? I think we have to be very strategic. I think we have to be very considered. I think what we talk a lot about is, where do we have authenticity to offer an opinion on something, and where can we be truly additive? If it’s performative and we’re just offering an opinion to offer an opinion, that’s not a space we’re going to play in right now. I don’t think the times benefit from that. I think where we can be truly authentic is in one or two places. One is we’re a business, and so we can speak from the business sector. And the other is on environmental and climate issues. We’ve got a 52-year history. We work our asses off to minimize our footprint. As you made reference to, we’ve supported grassroots activism for 40 years and counting. And so that’s who we are, what we do, and I think we’ve earned the right to offer opinions on that. You get a sense of the different approaches to really a very similar and consequential set of issues. We’re going to talk about more than politics, I promise, but I do want to come back to this issue of, Hamdi, how you navigate a moment like this, and when you decide to work with Ivanka Trump, even when you decide to work with the White House. It can seem like a no-win situation. You work with someone, you piss one side off. You say something, you piss the other side off. How do you think about engaging in these partnerships where you are trying to find common ground without alienating any of your consumer base? Ulukaya: Yeah, look, what I do and what we do at Chobani is really, we have the known instinct or reflex that we react regardless of what the world thinks and all that kind of stuff. Ivanka actually did not start now. I worked with her in Idaho after President Biden got into the White House, actually. And what we did is, we made boxes of food from the farmers, and we delivered to people in need in communities at that time. And later on, even before the election, she and her partner, they created this organization called Planet Harvest, and she says: “Do you realize that in California, 40% of all the fruits and vegetables are wasted and left in the land because they don’t look good and there’s no buyer?” And I couldn’t believe it. I am aware of these things, but I didn’t even realize. And I went to the land and I saw, and partnered with her and her partners who had studied quite knowledgeably. Absolutely, we’ll do it. Absolutely, we’ll do it. I’ll invest with it, and I’ll lead it and improve the concept. So to me this . . . and when I said we are going to hire refugees during the first, I don’t know how many years ago, we got death threats and boycottsall kinds of stuff like that. The first time I wrote about your company. Ulukaya: You wrote it in The New York Times, and we got death threats. We all have to react as human beigs, who we are. And businesses are a combination of people. You’ve got to do the right thing regardless of what lawyers and communication experts will say. On the advisor council stuff right now. Ulukaya: I want to invite everybody towe have some serious, serious issues that we have to bring everybody to the table to. Look, we really do. I do see some egocentric reaction . . . just anger because of the other person. Okay, they are enormous about the differences. I don’t know. I was invited to the White House because I’m announcing a huge investment in Idaho and another one in Rome in New York, and being part of Invest in America. I don’t have any working relationship with the White House, but my view on immigration and refugees is the same. I have an organization called Tent. I just came from Mexico. I’m meeting all those people who are encouraging people to hire refugees and train refugees. These are timeless truths. People are going to move, and we have to make a system that works for every single person. And we proved it in our factories, in our communities. And today, you will not have farmworkers, or you will not have functioning farms and agriculture, without immigration. Everybody knows that. Everybody.
Category:
E-Commerce
The latest buzzword is AI literacy. Much like social media, ESG, and CSR before it, employers are now looking for proof of fluency on résumés, and individuals are desperate to differentiate themselves to show that they are keeping pace. And its everywhere, mentions of terms like agentic AI, AI workforce, digital labor, and AI agents during earnings calls increased by nearly 800% in the last year, according to AlphaSense data. Over the last five years, workers across industries have become expected to be well-versed in a technology that is ever-evolving and still relatively new for so many, including the leaders implementing it. The trouble with AI is that by the time a candidate hits send on a CV, their level of proficiency is already outdated. It’s a quiet, corrosive force that’s keeping people silent in the very moments when we need their voices most. But what if the real problem isnt the pace of change or people not understanding AI, but instead that we have made them feel ashamed for their lack of understanding, preventing people from raising their hand to say, “I don’t know? Vulnerability makes us human. Mark Cuban recently posted on X, The greatest weakness of AI is its inability to say ‘I don’t know. Our ability to admit what we don’t know will always give humans an advantage. Why, then, are we creating an environment and fostering workplace cultures that encourage people to fake it, until you make it” as it relates to AI? The cost of staying quiet is real. We’re at risk of shaming ourselves into obscurity. The Shame Spiral in Action Everyones talking about the AI hype cycle. But almost no one is talking about the shame spiral its creating. AI not only has a long-term impact on the economy, but also on the day-to-day lives of people. Companies are replacing roles faster than theyre training workers and in some cases, like Klarna, laying off workers only to hire back when AI tools fall short. People miss out on jobs, not because theyre unqualified, but because no one gave them a path forward. They walk around feeling like impostors in rooms they’ve already earned the right to be in. Inside companies, we see biased tools get approved and shortcuts turn into systems. A recent report by LinkedIn shows 35% of professionals feel too nervous to talk about AI at work, and 33% feel embarrassed by how little they know. These aren’t just workers, they’re parents and community leaders. This shame spiral, fueled by hype that says “everyone gets AI except you,” risks shutting down curiosity and critical questions before they even start. The pattern signals a bigger issue: at the same time people feel too ashamed to engage, AI systems are taking over and making decisions, incremental and important, that affect everyone. To avoid embarrassment, people take shortcuts. A recruiter might rely on an AI résumé screener without understanding how it works and which candidates it may be discarding. A manager might approve a tool that decides who gets extended care without asking what drives the algorithm. A parent might sign off on an AI-powered teaching tool without knowing who designed the curriculum. A 2024 Microsoft and LinkedIn survey found that only 39% of people globally who use AI at work have gotten AI training from their company. We’ve seen what happens when these systems go unchecked. Amazon scrapped its AI recruiting tool after it was found to discriminate against women. Workday faces a class-action lawsuit alleging its AI screening tools systematically exclude older workers and people with disabilities from job opportunities. Microsoft’s chatbot Tay launched with the intention of learning from conversations, was exposed to trolls, and within 24 hours, was posting racist, misogynistic, and offensive content. When silence replaces curiosity, people essentially remove themselves from the decision-making process until they are no longer accounted for. Reshaping The Workplace Reality AI is here, and it is changing the workforce. The choice is ours: Bring people along with us and help them be part of the transformation or leave them behind in the name of efficiency? What moves people from anxiety to agency isn’t more lectures or tutorials. People are inspired by permission and tools. Permission to be a beginner. The freedom and the space to learn. The most confident AI users aren’t experts; they play with different tools until they find what works for them. Digital dignity starts with that permissionpermission to ask basic questions, to slow down, to admit gaps. It means leaders modeling vulnerability before demanding employees fill theirs. To truly embrace and harness the potential of AI, we must focus on impact, not mechanics. You don’t need to code a neural net, but you do need to spot when AI systems are making decisions about you. Start with what affects you directly: parents can ask what tools schools are using, job seekers can learn how résumé screening works, and managers can ask what AI tools are coming into their workplaceand what training comes with them. Practice saying “I don’t know.” The best leaders see gaps as opportunities to ask good questions. JPMorgan created low-stakes spaces for managers to experiment with AI, encouraging leaders to admit when they were stuck. That openness built trust and sped up adoption. Johnson & Johnson encouraged broad experimentation across business units, generating nearly 900 AI / generative AI use cases across research, supply chain, commercial, and internal support. The result? An internal chatbot for employees and a fresh approach to making clinical trials more representative. This isn’t just a knowledge gap. It’s a culture of silence. And if we don’t break it, AI won’t be a tool for transformation; it’ll be a mirror for all the systems we were too ashamed to question. The most powerfl thing we can say in this moment is: “I don’t know. But I want to learn.” Because the future is still being written, and we all deserve a seat at the table and a hand on the pen.
Category:
E-Commerce
For leaders today, the pressure to do more with less feels relentless. Leaner teams, flatter organizations, and the rise of productivity tools such as Slack, Notion.ai, and Monday.com promise efficiency but often deliver the opposite: more reporting, more deliverables, and the demand to be always on.Organizations are increasingly falling into the “acceleration trap,” taking on too much too quickly and undermining their effectiveness and well-being. Sandra, a senior leader in the tech sector, saw this firsthand. After a reorganization left her team stretched thin, she slipped into a 9-9-6 routineworking nine to nine, six days a week. Gallup’s research shows unmanageable workloads and unclear priorities are top drivers of burnout and disengagement. For Sandra and her team, competing priorities created the illusion of progress. Quick wins piled up, but strategic projects stalled. Through our work advising dozens of companies navigating high-stakes transformations, we have seen this pattern repeatedly. Kathryn, as an executive coach and keynote speaker, and Jenny, as an executive adviser and learning & development expert, help leaders recognize when theyve fallen into the productivity trap, and how to climb out before it undermines their long-term impact. Productivity isnt the problem. Unbounded productivity is. Nonstop execution drains energy, mutes your voice, and erodes your ability to lead strategically. Here are four ways to avoid the trap. 1. Set Boundaries Against Over-Execution Deloitte finds that when AI and productivity tools lack clear ways of working, they create more work. Sandras team once tracked 157 projects, spending more time updating systems than moving work forward. As deadlines slipped, Sandra found herself diving into the weeds to close gapsa vicious cycle that left her team dependent on her and pulled her away from the strategic work only she could do. “Long hours backfire,” undercutting both people and organizational outcomes, with over-execution producing diminishing returns. To avoid this death by a thousand cuts, leaders must set clear rules of engagement. Focus only on mission-critical projects and eliminate the noise. Create a not-to-do list. Steve Jobs said, I’m actually as proud of the things we haven’t done as the things I have done. Empower your team to say not now when requests dont align with priorities. And keep stakeholders aligned by communicating progress and risks, reinforcing that the team is tackling the biggest problems. By following these principles, Sandras team cut the list to 25 priorities. But protecting time is only part of the equation; leaders must also decide how to spend it. 2. Balance Operator and Architect Modes Even after narrowing the list, Sandra was pulled into details. Her CEO wanted project-level updates, so she dug into the weeds herself, time that should have been spent on architect-level work, such as setting direction, aligning stakeholders, and shaping long-term priorities. If she had stayed at the right level, her team would have managed the details, and her CEO would have been hearing about trends, risks, and strategic shifts proactively through her updates. The Entrepreneurial Operating System (EOS) frames this as: rocks, pebbles, sand. Rocks: the 37 strategic priorities that truly move the business Pebbles: mid-sized projects matter but dont transform the business Sand: daily tasks, emails, and meetings that eat capacity The insight is simple: protect the rocks. Each time Sandra dug into sand, she sacrificed architect time. Ask: Am I building the future, or just surviving the present? Protecting rocks advances strategy and gives leaders clarity to speak up when new requests threaten to divert focus. 3. Speak UpDont Suffer in Silence One of the most common traps for leaders is quietly absorbing more work than they can handle. The instinct often comes from a desire to help and prove capability. However, silence signals capacity and quickly leads to overload. Gallup research shows unmanageable workloads are one of the biggest drivers of burnout and disengagement. The antidote is to make trade-offs explicit and visible. Leaders who speak up frame pushback not as resistance but as stewardship of priorities. Ground conversations in data: dashboards and workload views turn invisible strain into concrete evidence, elevating the discussion from Can you take this on? to How do we prioritize what matters most? Simple routines also normalize dialogue about focus. Start-stop-continue discussions encourage teams to decide what to pause or drop before new work is added. Asking, Which initiative should we deprioritize to make room for this one? reframes pushback as alignment, not reluctance. When Sandra faced mounting demands from her executive team, she shifted from silent acceptance to strategic dialogue. Instead of taking on every initiative, she began saying, If we add this project, heres what wont move forward. That change forced trade-offs onto the table, protected her capacity to act, and strengthened performance. 4. Protect Your Strategic Energy Sandra thought she was shielding her team by absorbing the overflow. It felt generous, even necessary, to keep them from burning out. But the more she took on, the more depleted she became. What looked like support drained her clarity and influence. That realization became a turning point. Protecting her strategic energy wasnt selfish; it was the only way to lead efectively. Leaders safeguard energy by channeling it into high-leverage priorities only they can drive: setting strategic direction, strengthening client growth, aligning stakeholders, and developing talent. McKinsey research shows sustainable productivity depends less on visible activity and more on aligning day-to-day focus with core strategy. Once Sandra redirected her attention to those high-value areas, her team stepped up operationally. The company advanced with greater focus, and her CEO engaged her in forward-looking conversations that reflected her true value. Protecting her energy unlocked not just her effectiveness, but her companys. When leaders over-execute, chase quick wins, or stay silent under pressure, they risk undermining the very future they are trying to build. Busyness doesnt create results or innovation; focus and reflection do. The leaders who thrive arent the busiest, but the ones who know how to protect their capacity for the work only they can do. Where might you be confusing activity for impact, or quick wins for real progress?
Category:
E-Commerce
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